Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Okay, there's a little bonus content for everybody. Woohoo. Bonus content. Yeah. I feel like I would be remiss to not talk a little bit about the polyvagal theory. So that's what this bonus content is gonna be. Bonus episode, The polyvagal theory is one that comes up a lot. If you take trauma informed coursework, uh, if you do any trainings, you'll probably see it. It was developed by, uh, Steven POEs. He put out a really great paper on it in 2009 that I read. And I really like the theory. It's actually really great. However, in looking through newer research, I encountered areas of contention with it. Uh, people who have issues with it. It essentially, it's not totally proven to be accurate, and we don't even really know if it applies to humans. We see evidence for it in certain animal models, but we don't necessarily see the evidence outside of like behavioral theory.
Speaker 0 00:00:56 We don't see it in humans. So the thought is humans likely have more complex, uh, nervous system organization, and therefore there's likely other things involved with our survival mechanisms than just the Vegas when it comes to the sensory, uh, or the pathways that are mitigating the different responses. So essentially, polyvagal theory is a way of describing the reason that fight and flight are physiologically different from freeze response. That's essentially what this theory is doing. It's trying to explain, it's kind of presenting a model of explanation, a potential explanation for why these things look different. In this theory, it states that there's two branches of the Vegas nerve. There's the vental vagal complex, the vvc. This one is the one that is involved in the fight or flight system. It down regulates the connections from the midbrain to the neocortex. So this is the one that starts to turn down those, those connections between like a amygdala, anterior singulate and stuff like that.
Speaker 0 00:01:59 Okay? And then there's also the dorsal vagal complex, the dvc. And this is involved in the freeze response. So this takes over if fight or flight fails, and then the vental vagal complex turns off. Okay? So that's, that is what this is talking about. All right. Um, I'm actually, I think I'm just gonna read off. There was a, a response to a question in my, in my course where I just wrote out an explanation <laugh> of how this polyvagal theory is supposed to work in action. So I think I'm just gonna read off some of this. It starts out with the description of the term neuroception. Neuroception was presented by pores. And in order to really explain it, I think it's best if I give you some clarification in terms of how the field of neuroscience defines things like sensation perception, consciousness awareness, stuff like that.
Speaker 0 00:02:55 Okay? So when you're talking neuroscience world and like research world, sensation is what occurs, right? When a sensory nerve gets stimulated, okay? So that initial one, like for touch, it would be like that nerve that's being active and that's getting activated with that touch, Okay? Like at the fingertip or something, that sensation, all right? The signal gets sent upward through that nerves into the nervous system, right? And that's where processing starts. Essentially the second that signal leaves the initial receiving neuron and goes into a new neuron. Now processing has started, okay? Because processing occurs in a lot of different ways. There's presences of like serial signals, parallel neurons, parallel pathways, recursive pathways, like kind of loopy doopy ones. Essentially, that's where the signal starts to be processed perception. On the most fundamental level, it does occur as soon as the single is starting to to be processed because you've fundamentally changed something about the signal.
Speaker 0 00:04:03 So something has changed, the signal's either been like strengthened or it's kinda like a filter, like it, it's been sort of filtered somehow. So it's been processed. So that's why perception is so different from sensation, especially when you read about it in like neuroscience and physiology. Those are very different things, okay? Because breakdown can occur anywhere up that processing chain and your perception is gonna be really different, right? It might change the perception a lot. And there's a lot of research being done in this for the sake of like motorized limbs, essentially, like things like that. Like being able to have the brain control, um, in implanted limbs for amputees and things like that. That's a lot of where this research is coming from because this incoming sensation and this processing is really important to how we actually access the motor. So it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 0 00:04:51 It's, it's really cool and fascinating stuff. I'm not gonna go, I'm gonna try not to go down that, that uh, rabbit hole with you guys though because <laugh>, we would be ever. So at a really fundamental level, your processing starts because of just your general neurological organization and animals and humans have different organizations. So this organization is a bit like how someone might organize their work files or maybe like create schedules and to-do list, right? So everybody might have a slightly different way of doing it, but that's essentially what's happening in that signal. It's being like organized and processed and changed up a bit. You might color code it, right? To make it more salient, things like that, right? And so conscious awareness of perception though of the perception of this signal, it really only occurs once it reaches the higher like cortical areas. Those like five layer cortex, the neocortex areas, the frontal cortical areas, that's where we start to become consciously aware.
Speaker 0 00:05:46 That's where we're perceiving that initial sensation. Does that make sense? So when we're talking colloquially, you're talking about like your sensation, your sense, your sense of touch. Oh, I sensed that, you know, whatever, uh, I sensed something was wrong with that person. Things like that. Like that's a colloquial use of the term. And then there's the neuroscience use, which is like sensation is literally like the moment that single receptor got activated and the signal was contained within that receptor neuron, that is sensation. And once it leaves that it's being processed and it's gonna change enough, that perception is gonna be a little different. And then you don't actually get awareness of perception until you get into those higher cortical areas. And that signal has been filtered through a lot by the time it gets up there. Does that make sense? Okay. So that's a little something about just how the nervous system organizes incoming information.
Speaker 0 00:06:36 So when the sensory information, when this processed sensory information arrives at the mid-brain structures, our amygdala and our mid-brain limbic system, so like a amygdala, hypothalamus, hippocampus, that stuff, okay? It has been processed, right? But that information hasn't entered a higher level cortical area, okay? So that person isn't necessarily aware of that information at the time, okay? You don't have conscious awareness of that information coming into your brain, but it has entered your mid brain. So because when we discuss trauma, we have such a big thing to do with how the brain determines if it's a threat or not. And that information coming into bid bearing mid-brain and like did the information even get into the higher cortic clears or not due to the survival mechanisms, right? This is that whole thing about trauma physiologically. So Porgs, I think that's how we say his name.
Speaker 0 00:07:31 I, I have never heard it pronounced, so I'm hoping I'm getting it right. But anyway, he created this term neuroception, we're getting back around to it guys. He created the term neuroception to refer specifically to that perceptual processing that happens at the midbrain level. Okay? So neuroception is literally just talking about the perception of incoming stimuli to the amygdala and the other like midbrain limbic system, okay? So he basically come up with a different term than perception because neuroscience wise, that's typically people mean you've hit the higher cortical areas if you're perceiving something. But since we're not talking about that neocortex, we're talking about midbrain structures and them possibly like signaling it a survival response without the neocortex getting input and that's the trauma response, then that's why he came up with this due term, this neuroception, okay? And so this neuroception level, this mid-brain level is where we get into his polyvagal theory.
Speaker 0 00:08:40 Does that make sense? So like the neuroception is what's deciding which branch of the Vegas is going to be in charge, I think is kind of his idea there. I believe that's it. I might have gotten that a little bit off, but I think that's right. Okay. <laugh> talking myself, talking myself up. Ah, all right. Okay. So Pogo in his 2009 paper actually said, um, neuroception, this is a direct quote, uh, but it's been edited a little by me. But Neuroception emphasizes a neural process that capable of distinguishing environmental and visceral features that are safe, dangerous, or life threatening. Okay? Does that make sense? So that's what he means by neuroception. It's essentially where that survival mechanism gets engaged because neuroception is how he's describing the processing that's happening in that midbrain. And this is just that are getting made there. All right? So in the scenario I use to kind of explain the entire cascade in the polyvagal theory, I use the scenario of a person walking alone at night and maybe they get mugged or threatened or something at knife point.
Speaker 0 00:09:50 This may or may not have had something to do with me listening to a podcast about the original OG 1970, what is it? 78, 79 Superman. 77. Was that when it came? I don't forget when that came. 78, I think it's 78. Anyway, might have had something to do with that because like that lowest lane's kind of tough. Like she's just like, yeah, whatever. Okay, about <laugh> about stuff. But anyway, that was my scenario. Uh, so in this scenario, the vitro VCAL complex is active and it's connecting to the visceral, the like gut input to the mid brain structures. So neuroception starts to occur, okay? So per VanDerKolk, the first response would be social person would call for help. That's not part of hallal theory. That's just part of VanDerKolk, okay? Let's say nobody comes though. So then that amygdala Olympic system would take over sending the person into fight or flight mode, okay?
Speaker 0 00:10:42 It is at this point that the person's neuroception is working to determine if fighting would be a good reaction or if running would give the person the best chance of survival, okay? Or safety. Okay? If the person is trained in combat and could knock the assailant's knife out of their hand with ease, then that person's neuroception might conclude that fight is the best response. If like most of us, or like myself, this is not the case, then the person's limbic system might decide to run. All right? So they might decide to to flee at both of those stages. The person's vental vagal complex is continuing to work to combine visceral responses and cortical processing at the social i e frontal portion of the brain initially in the social response and then at the midbrain, the neuroception levels and the second response. Does that make sense?
Speaker 0 00:11:30 So the VC is active when you're yelling for help, but the VC is also still active even when if that one fails, you're doing the neuroception decision of fight or flight, okay? If none of these responses are determined to be safe, uh, so let's say the person decides they can't really fight and maybe they can't run fast enough to to successfully flee, then the vental fatal complex would deactivate and the dorsal vagal complex would activate. At this point the person goes into the freeze response wherein visceral processing is still occurring, but at the level of the brain stem. So this is that theory. So instead of it being now at the neuroception level, it's actually lower in more of a brain stem level. Neuroception is not occurring at the stage because the amygdala and limbic system requires the ventral vagal complex input to be actively involved in processing information.
Speaker 0 00:12:25 Once the freeze response occurs, the person is effectively dislocating from the situation or dissociating. I think that's what I meant to say. The person is effectively dissociating from the situation. It is still an adaptive response. However, in that, if the person is able to successfully appease the assailant, like giving them their wallet for example, then the assailant might walk away and the person escapes the situation physically unharmed. That does not mean however, they are not psychologically and emotionally unharmed. But that is essentially what the topic of trauma response is, right? So that's getting into a much denser discussion. So that's the idea behind polyvagal. It sounds really cool, right? The idea that okay, you have this men brain processing, that's your fight or flight. And then when you go into freeze, the reason it looks so different physiologically is because it's actually now more in the mid-brain structures or more of your reptilian brain basically is basically saying it's going down more to that ancient reptilian brain level and it's all dorsal vagal complex, uh, mitigated.
Speaker 0 00:13:29 So you might hear that dvc vvc, if you ever hear that in a training anywhere else, that is what the person's talking about. They're talking about the polyvagal theory. It's really cool. I really like it. I love this theory. I kind of want it to be true, but I'm not gonna present it in the primary like, uh, body of stuff I'm gonna talk about. Because like I said, what I was looking into is that I think in the neuroscience world and the research world, there's really no solid evidence that humans even have the dvc, the dorsal vagal complex, uh, the way that sub animals do. Uh, I think prey animals in particular have the dorsal vagal complex. And so I think it's one of those things where we see it in animal models and we do see the behavioral change in humans, but I don't think there's ever been any like converging evidence in humans due to brain scans or, or what have you, that really prove that this is what's happening and that the mid-brain is being down regulated to the point that it's really just in the brain stem at that point.
Speaker 0 00:14:33 This is also where people tend to get that theory, that the freeze response becomes more parasympathetic. And I believe that has been disproven. I believe it, it has been more disproven that it is still sympathetic dominant at that point based off of like more current, uh, research articles I've read and also like, like research articles, like what they're giving me in the background of those research articles a lot of times cuz sometimes the ones that actually prove it are ones behind a paywall and I haven't access them. So full disclosure there, I haven't always read all the literature cuz I'm not involved in a new university. So <laugh> and I tell you what guys like research gate is great, you can go on there, you can request articles from authors and hopefully get a free copy, but it doesn't always happen. Not everybody always gives you a free copy.
Speaker 0 00:15:20 So, and it does take, take some time cuz you like request it and then you're like, hopefully they get back to me and hopefully I get the article and then sometimes it's like three months later it's like, oh here's that article you requested. And I'm like, oh that's awesome. That person decided to log in, you know, three months after my request or so. So like trying to do true academic research outside of university is not the easiest thing in the world. I just have to say that because thanks paywalls behind research that's publicly funded in the US So it sounds really silly that we have a but that's another issue so I really shouldn't get into it here. Okay anyway, um, <laugh>, so that's the jam, that's the deal of polyvagal theory. That is my presentation of it. Uh, hopefully that helps a bit. If you ever encounter, if you ever hear it, uh, you have a little better understanding of what it's trying to say.
Speaker 0 00:16:12 The fight flight or freeze cascade that I explained is, I think as far as I know, the most accurate thing we know at the moment when it comes to the research. So poly baals not as accurate anymore. Um, it sounds fancy, it sounds awesome, it is seen in animal models, but we don't know if we can really apply it to humans. So, um, I actually, this might be entertaining to SLPs, I actually encountered a forum where a lot of neuroscience graduate students were like, uh, I guess a student or maybe it wasn't, maybe it was a psychol psychology or psychiatry student, I'm not sure. But the student encountered the idea that this theory ist accurate and they were like, clinicians, why would you ever use this with clients? Or why do you continue to talk about this theory even if it's not accurate? And it's been effectively disproven, uh, in humans essentially.
Speaker 0 00:17:05 And a lot of people were like, look, this theory has some good stuff to it, right? Like as a model, as a way of conceptualizing and thinking about the survival cascade being different between fight or flight or freeze response and being able to conceptualize that your mid brain is doing some processing to the information and making decisions on its own without the awareness of it. The neuroception piece. Like it's, it's still some good stuff in there that can help clarify things to people effectively, right? And then the research, but it's an accurate why would you, right? And a lot of times clinicians were like, I'm not really giving them this theory, I'm just letting them know that like there's evidence that yes freeze response is different and this is why you responded that way because a lot of people go into freeze response, talk about feeling a little crazy or a lot of times, especially in the case of women, um, or just smaller people in general who have some sort of violent interaction with someone who when they go into a freeze response, there's a sense of shame for not fighting back.
Speaker 0 00:18:04 And that's a way that my understanding, you know, a lot of mental health people will be like, it's a natural response to your body. It was a response to survive and you survived. It did its job. There is no shame in going into freeze response versus fight or flight. That is not something you were in control of consciously. And also literally all it was the point was to survive. So it's fine. Like it's good that you did that cuz you survived. It worked like congratulate your brain for making decision that worked basically. So because a lot of times free freeze response is something I feel like is not really well understood colloquially. And so, you know, you get on like the Twitter horrible storms of like if there's a horrible news article then people are like, why wouldn't they fight back? I would totally fight back.
Speaker 0 00:18:49 And that's part of that like hindsight is 2020 thing cuz it's like, well what your brain chooses in terms of survival mechanisms isn't really consciously up to you at the time it's being chosen. So like, don't judge people if they just go into a freeze response. They, their brain did what it needed to do and if they survive the situation, it worked great. Not that there's any shame if somebody doesn't survive the situation, if they're truly un a very unfortunate victim of it. Um, there's no shame to that either because once again they're brain tried and it's did its best and there are forces in this world and there are humans in this world we can't survive against. And that's just how that goes, unfortunately. Uh, kind of dark guys. Sorry that's a dark note to in dawn, but that's basically how life goes, right?
Speaker 0 00:19:37 There are forces of nature out there we can't always defend against. So, and there's also humans with very dangerous intent and very dangerous ideas and whatever that you can't always defend against as much as you want to. Right? Okay, that was my little bit of bonus content helps explain the poly baal theory a little bit. Uh, hopefully you like the info dump on that one. Woo. And a little bit, little bit nerve science. Go a little bit in there, you know, a little bit, a little sprinkling, little dash little bio kicking it up A match of, uh, <laugh> of like sensation versus perception in the neuroscience world. Cause it's a little different than how we think about it in the SLP world. And clinically also like I think clinicians in general tend to think of it a little differently. Um, but I just thought that was funny because when you talk to clinicians and how they conceptualize things to make it work clinically, it's like we tend to stay more broad than researchers do, and then researchers kind of get a bug in their butt because we're like more broad with it. It's like, well we're more broad with it because like we can't generalize this hyper
Speaker 1 00:20:47 Specific thing, right? Is like we're doing the best we can, but we're also, we're seeing all the variations that are out there that don't fit the little research box, you know? So, uh, it's just kind of funny. We have different jobs effectively, you know, researchers and clinicians. Neither are better than the other. Both really should be like relying on each other. But unfortunately humans like to feel superior. And so I think that's where we get into trouble because it's like, you know, if we just both parties respected one another really well then maybe we, you know, maybe we would like, you know, have better discussions and stuff. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? But this is also another soapbox I'm getting into. I need to stop myself. Stop ADHD brain. Okay you guys, I hope you like this. Have a good one. Bye.
